I deleted a post in error about a K&B carb

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I deleted a post in error about a K&B carb

Postby MECOA » Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:27 pm

Someone was asking about an old sq K&B carb not transitioning. It is because the end of the spraybar was bell mouthed by allowing the idle needle to flair the end of it.

Either the carb body/spray bar needs to be replaced or the end of the spraybar hole needs to be coined closed a little.

To coin it closed you can use a very flat punch, Remove the needle and lock nut and rest the carb on a flat surface. Slightly peen the end of the spraybar closed so only about 1/32" of the end of the idle needle fits into the hole.

This requires skill, you are on your own if you try this. Don't blame me if you screw it up.

Randy
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Re: I deleted a post in error about a K&B carb

Postby Legal v8 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:47 pm

MECOA wrote:Someone was asking about an old sq K&B carb not transitioning. It is because the end of the spraybar was bell mouthed by allowing the idle needle to flair the end of it.

Either the carb body/spray bar needs to be replaced or the end of the spraybar hole needs to be coined closed a little.

To coin it closed you can use a very flat punch, Remove the needle and lock nut and rest the carb on a flat surface. Slightly peen the end of the spraybar closed so only about 1/32" of the end of the idle needle fits into the hole.

This requires skill, you are on your own if you try this. Don't blame me if you screw it up.

Randy


I'm pretty sure that was me, and its a non-remote needle carb on a sportster .65. There is no idle "needle" as the idle adjustment rotates the whole mixture disk. I pulled the carb apart on the second sportster I have and the mixture disk look identical. In order to get the engine to transition decent, I have to run the idle mix to the full lean position and the high speed mixture was adjusted to max RPM and then richened 2-3 clicks. This engine is on an airboat, not a plane so I dont set it up real rich since it doesnt change altitude. I'm currently using a 12x8 MAS K-series prop, and I get about 9200rpm at the current carburetor setting.
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Postby Legal v8 » Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:06 pm

I'm gonna just try an Idle bar glow plug and see what happens.. Nobody seems to know how to fix the problem, so hopefully a different plug will do the trick.

If anyone has any suggestions, by all means post it..
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Postby chiefss » Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:50 pm

I know exactly how to fix the problem. Replace the carb.
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Postby Legal v8 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:46 am

chiefss wrote:I know exactly how to fix the problem. Replace the carb.


Really? This engine is brand new, basically. It's from 1991 but was never ran until I got it.
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Postby chiefss » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:54 am

Really. You say there is some kind of damage to the spray bar or something. Replacing the whole care would surely solve that problem.
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Postby Legal v8 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:53 pm

chiefss wrote:Really. You say there is some kind of damage to the spray bar or something. Replacing the whole care would surely solve that problem.


I never said there was any damage to the spray bar. The Mecoa guy accidentally deleted my original post and he thought I had a different carb than I do. This engine has the old style non-remote needle carb on the engine itself. The mixture disk is on an eccentric screw only rotating rich or lean 1/4 turn either way from center. He thought I had a carb with a low speed "needle" which it does not have. This engine came in a mig-27 foam airplane kit that the Military used for target practice. A friend in the military got a bunch of these engines (new, never ran) and gave me 2 of them.
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Postby Legal v8 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:57 pm

The problem (since I wasn't real clear on the re-post) is the engine loads up on transition from idle to midrange (or WOT for that matter). The idle mix can only be adjusted 1/4 turn and thats where it transitions the best. The idle is nice and smooth and it will idle for a long time but if it idles for more than 2-3 seconds, there is a good chance it will stall. The WOT rpm is good and smooth and doesnt drop off (sounds nice too). It just transitions like poo.
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Postby MECOA » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:56 am

OK now you said it was for the target plane. Those were spec'd to run full throttle and idle and transition was not required.

I would suggest replacing the carb. These were for military use only. Not to be sold to consumers.
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Postby chiefss » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:17 pm

Like I said, new carb.
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Postby Legal v8 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:28 pm

MECOA wrote:OK now you said it was for the target plane. Those were spec'd to run full throttle and idle and transition was not required.

I would suggest replacing the carb. These were for military use only. Not to be sold to consumers.


Okay.. how much is a carb? Would it have to be converted to a remote needle or can I retain the needles in the carb?
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Postby Legal v8 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:41 pm

Legal v8 wrote:
MECOA wrote:OK now you said it was for the target plane. Those were spec'd to run full throttle and idle and transition was not required.

I would suggest replacing the carb. These were for military use only. Not to be sold to consumers.


Okay.. how much is a carb? Would it have to be converted to a remote needle or can I retain the needles in the carb?


I also forgot to ask what the differences between a "civilian" sportster and "military" sportster are. Is it just the carburetor or are the internals different too? From what others have said, my sportsters are on-par with the older non-bushed sportsters. Others have talked about the military planes and never brought up any physical differences. I watched a YouTube Monkey of someone flying one of those Mig's with the K&B and their engine sounded like it ran a lot better than mine..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcsje8Qpbqc
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Postby Legal v8 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:03 am

Legal v8 wrote:
Legal v8 wrote:
MECOA wrote:OK now you said it was for the target plane. Those were spec'd to run full throttle and idle and transition was not required.

I would suggest replacing the carb. These were for military use only. Not to be sold to consumers.


Okay.. how much is a carb? Would it have to be converted to a remote needle or can I retain the needles in the carb?


I also forgot to ask what the differences between a "civilian" sportster and "military" sportster are. Is it just the carburetor or are the internals different too? From what others have said, my sportsters are on-par with the older non-bushed sportsters. Others have talked about the military planes and never brought up any physical differences. I watched a YouTube Monkey of someone flying one of those Mig's with the K&B and their engine sounded like it ran a lot better than mine..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcsje8Qpbqc


My last post (for whatever reason) was supposed to read "Youtube Monkey" but somehow Monkey got changed to monkey. I don't know why, either. It said Monkey when I posted it.
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Postby Legal v8 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:46 am

Whats the deal with the word filter? Can't say v.i.d.e.o. on this forum?
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Postby Legal v8 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:03 pm

I ran into a couple of other questions I figured I'd ask.. 1) is the entire carburetor faulty or does the idle disk/o-rings need to be replaced?

2) can the non-faulty .65's be used in an inboard-engine boat?

a) if they can, whats needed to convert them to run a water prop?
b) if not, can they be put on an outboard lower unit?
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Postby MECOA » Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:49 pm

Yep you can't say V I D E O

No good for a boat. Can't put it on an outboard.

I would have to check it to see what is wrong with it. We don't sell K&B carbs without remote needles.
Last edited by MECOA on Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Legal v8 » Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:49 am

Whats the price and difference on the two carbs you offer for the sportster .65? The two part numbers I see is 80-5801 and 80-5802. I'd like to keep the needle on the carb (80-5801). What is the reason these military engines with these particular carbs don't throttle well? Is it mismachined low speed disk or spraybar?
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Postby MECOA » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:14 am

The military engines are NOT to be sold to the public. They would be considered stolen from the military. These were to be destroyed.

The only carb we sell is the remote needle version.

You can buy the mixture disk and try that. The part number is 85-5801

https://shop.mecoa.com/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=158
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Postby chiefss » Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:54 pm

A lot of the engines were sold to civilians. I had a friend in the air force who flew the things at Fort Lewis, Washington. Then they were Foam deltas and used K&B 61's. The same as the old Veco 61. They came two to a box with a R&S radio and the K&B engine. The fuel was supplied by K&B in 55 gallon drums. The radio was on a military frequency so unusable in the civilian world.

He was authorized to sell off the unused engines and fuel to get funds to pay for other little items needed to make the airplane flyable. Props, spinners etc.

My club would take him empty fuel cans and fill them for 4 bucks a gallon for K&B 500.

Watching him do his thing was exciting as hell. When he chased the ground troops around they would shoot at it with small arms. Seldom hit it but occasionally a bullet hole would appear. The soldiers knew it was coming but didn't know exactly when. They would be bivouacked doing their thing and he would come zooming in unannounced. It was unbelievable.

Now the 20mm Gatling gun got him almost every time. It was radar controlled and locked on the engine. Somewhere around here I have a pic of a K&B 61 that took a direct hit from a twenty. Non repairable.

There airpalnes were called RCMATs. Radio Controlled Military Airplane Target. There was an article about them in RCM back in the early 80's.

The second bunch were the Mig 27 Floggers using K&B65's. Goldberg made them. The Deltas were more maneuverable but the Floggers were bigger and easier to hit and the Sprotster65's were a lot cheaper engine. No one felt bad about destroying them.
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Postby Legal v8 » Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:44 am

chiefss wrote:A lot of the engines were sold to civilians. I had a friend in the air force who flew the things at Fort Lewis, Washington. Then they were Foam deltas and used K&B 61's. The same as the old Veco 61. They came two to a box with a R&S radio and the K&B engine. The fuel was supplied by K&B in 55 gallon drums. The radio was on a military frequency so unusable in the civilian world.

He was authorized to sell off the unused engines and fuel to get funds to pay for other little items needed to make the airplane flyable. Props, spinners etc.

My club would take him empty fuel cans and fill them for 4 bucks a gallon for K&B 500.

Watching him do his thing was exciting as hell. When he chased the ground troops around they would shoot at it with small arms. Seldom hit it but occasionally a bullet hole would appear. The soldiers knew it was coming but didn't know exactly when. They would be bivouacked doing their thing and he would come zooming in unannounced. It was unbelievable.

Now the 20mm Gatling gun got him almost every time. It was radar controlled and locked on the engine. Somewhere around here I have a pic of a K&B 61 that took a direct hit from a twenty. Non repairable.

There airpalnes were called RCMATs. Radio Controlled Military Airplane Target. There was an article about them in RCM back in the early 80's.

The second bunch were the Mig 27 Floggers using K&B65's. Goldberg made them. The Deltas were more maneuverable but the Floggers were bigger and easier to hit and the Sprotster65's were a lot cheaper engine. No one felt bad about destroying them.


Thank you for posting this. I don't think its fair or of good character to tell someone they have stolen property when they were acquired (FREE) legally and legitimately. I called the guy I got them from who is a friend and in the military. He told me these engines belonged to his unit and that his Superiors told his unit to "get rid of them" they did not care where they went, they just wanted them gone. My friend is an honest good man and would not break the law giving away stolen property.

With that said, I would also like to note that I am proud of the "Made in USA" badge that these engines display and would support the effort to keep them made here. However, I am in a tough moral spot. I would like to do business with Mecoa for parts and more engines, but given the attitude I've received about my engines, I'm not sure if I want to do that. I don't say this to tick anyone off, but bring to light in this thought: In this down economy a lot of companies are doing everything they can to keep business moving in a forward (and profitable) direction and finding new ways to get customers in the door (or onto the web) and buy their products and/or services.

Mecoa - I didn't come here to tick you or anyone else off. I came here because everyone I've talked to said "If you have problems or questions with your K&B engines, talk to Randy at Mecoa. He knows them inside out and backwards" I'm sorry if I wronged you somehow, but give me a little slack - Please.

Sorry for the long post - I had to get that out there. If I offend anyone, I'm sorry.. I'm not trying to. I just want to enjoy my hobby.
Thank you.
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Postby MECOA » Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:37 am

I am just telling you what was suppose to be done with these engines, I AM NOT SAYING ANYTHING BAD ABOUT YOU.

You keep saying the engine is new. These engines did not carry any warranty and were made for the military. Anyone that has one must realize what they have. I got the impression you are blaming us for the fact it will not throttle, this is why I am trying to make the point as to what you have. This is not our consumer version.

THEY WERE MADE TO BE DESTROYED. THEY WERE NOT TO BE SOLD TO THE CONSUMER MARKET. This was in the original contract 20 years ago. Please understand they were sold with no margin for customer support or warranty.

If I remember correctly the spec stated it must throttle below 5000 rpm.
I am Randy from RJL and before we bought K&B we proposed and qualified a competing design http://www.mecoa.com/museum/prototype/rcmat.jpg with a minimal throttle control. But the price point became so low it would be like trading dollars, no room for any mistakes. At this point we withdrew our proposal. After K&B won the contract I always heard from John Brodbeck how he wished he never won the bid.

With this said, if you would like to try the idle mixture disk, try it. I CAN NOT guarantee this will fix the problem. Or if you want to send it in for repair as a non warranty item you can.

But consider our position, most that get these engines for free from a friend will not spend any money on them. I hear it all the time... "I'm not going to spend $20 on it, I got it for free."
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Postby Legal v8 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:31 pm

MECOA wrote:I am just telling you what was suppose to be done with these engines, I AM NOT SAYING ANYTHING BAD ABOUT YOU.

You keep saying the engine is new. These engines did not carry any warranty and were made for the military. Anyone that has one must realize what they have. I got the impression you are blaming us for the fact it will not throttle, this is why I am trying to make the point as to what you have. This is not our consumer version.

THEY WERE MADE TO BE DESTROYED. THEY WERE NOT TO BE SOLD TO THE CONSUMER MARKET. This was in the original contract 20 years ago. Please understand they were sold with no margin for customer support or warranty.

If I remember correctly the spec stated it must throttle below 5000 rpm.
I am Randy from RJL and before we bought K&B we proposed and qualified a competing design http://www.mecoa.com/museum/prototype/rcmat.jpg with a minimal throttle control. But the price point became so low it would be like trading dollars, no room for any mistakes. At this point we withdrew our proposal. After K&B won the contract I always heard from John Brodbeck how he wished he never won the bid.

With this said, if you would like to try the idle mixture disk, try it. I CAN NOT guarantee this will fix the problem. Or if you want to send it in for repair as a non warranty item you can.

But consider our position, most that get these engines for free from a friend will not spend any money on them. I hear it all the time... "I'm not going to spend $20 on it, I got it for free."


Randy - First off, thanks for replying to my book-like post. I didn't start this post to bad-mouth anyone, nor put blame on anyone for its (the engine) faults. I understand what I have. I'm not asking for free parts or service. I am willing to pay good money to get it running right. I just didnt think it to be realistic to replace the entire carburetor since its the same design as the early sportster engines. I figured it had something to do with the idle disk and/or barrel assembly. I have seen a picture (http://www.mecoa.com/faq/carb/mixdisk/mixdisc.jpg) of a mix disk that has 2 holes in it. I am thinking this is for a remote needle carb. Does the mix disk for a non-remote needle carb have 2 holes in it, and thus having a barrel assembly with 2 holes in it? If this is the case, then I will order a whole carburetor and be done with it. The Mix disk in the engines have a single "hole" with a small slit on either side of the hole. The round hole is in slightly different locations on the two engines I have. I swapped mix disks to see if it would make a difference, and it did not. The idle mix is still way too rich.

I don't expect any guarantees. I never would given something this old. My expectations were probably a bit high and I apologize for that. I more or less just wanted to know what was different between the two versions of the engine so I could get the parts that would make it run right.

Thanks for getting back to me and giving me a bit more info. I understand your position and respect that.
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Postby MECOA » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:58 am

The 2nd hole was added for the .67 - 1.00 marine engines. It only affects the high speed running by allowing more fuel in. Either one will work on the .65 Sportster.

The location of the slot is very critical on the spraybar. As I said the military version was critical as it did not need to meet the requirements of the consumer version.
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Postby Legal v8 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:14 am

MECOA wrote:The 2nd hole was added for the .67 - 1.00 marine engines. It only affects the high speed running by allowing more fuel in. Either one will work on the .65 Sportster.

The location of the slot is very critical on the spraybar. As I said the military version was critical as it did not need to meet the requirements of the consumer version.


Okay - Thank you very much. I'll place an order for 2 idle disk's then.
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