Stallion 35 stunt engine, compared with Fox .35 ????

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Stallion 35 stunt engine, compared with Fox .35 ????

Postby Ingvar » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:54 pm

Dear friends,

I am building a SIG kit "Super Chipmunk where the plan is showing a Fox .35. However - I am allready flying my trainer "Banshee" with a hemi-head modified Fox.
I have a K&B Stallion - bought a year ago. The engine was never started - but I have started it with a Top Flite 10 x 6 W propeller and as far as I can see, this might be a better engine than the Fox.

Are there any folks around flying their .35 Stallion stunt engines? Has it the same "George Aldrich" characteristics that allmost make my heart stop beating every time I go out inverted from a looping?

Are there any preferred mufflers? This old engine is not prepared for any type of muffler.

Cheers // Ingvar
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Postby loucrane » Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:42 pm

Ingvar,

Horsepower and manners are two entirely different things. A good Fox 35 on a light Super Chipmunk, should be a long-lasting joy. A bit more power would help, but if it comes on too strongly, it might not.

The K&B Stallion series .35 is a strong engine, but intended for ultimate power use, at low cost. It MIGHT work well at 11,500 or so launch RPM on a 10-4 prop, to stay in 2-cycle all the way, as many of the more modern engines do.

It might also bring up problems that are tricky to figure out.

Nitro? Prop? Plug? Lap time? Line length? Even though a Stunt Fox 35 has less brute horsepower than many more modern engines, it has very appropriate power for Stunt models within its capabilities.
To become a great pianist, FIRST learn the scales, the keys. Then, when master of the details of your art, go on to the adventurous.

Many things will work, but if you skip over the basics, you can expect some simple problem to cause great grief.
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Postby chiefss » Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:54 pm

The Stallion 35 was a cheaper and less powerful version of the Torpedo Greenhead 35. It will run well on 5% nitro and most 10x6 props. i still have one I bought in 1963. Was disappointed in it but then I was comparing it to my Johnsons, Super Tigres and even the Fox 35x and 36X. Is was definitly behind the Greenhead Torp. Not reall a contest engine but it ran OK and was easy to start and set up.

It was worth the $9.95 price Tag. Definitely better than the Redhead McCoy.
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K & B .35 Stallion

Postby WaltEagles24 » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:58 pm

I recently bought a K&B .35 Stallion and found it to be a mess. The more I dug into it the more I found needed cleaned and\ or replaced. I went to the hobby shop and bought new Allen head screws for the head and cylinder but could not find gaskets for the head and cylinder. Does any one know of a source for these gaskets? Also if there is no longer a source I thought I could make them if I could find the right material.

Please help
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Postby loucrane » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:48 am

Walt,

Considering they haven't been made for about 30 years, you are simply working off that factor. As you didn't mention any problems (yet) with the parts themselves, you're in pretty good shape.

If the head and backplate gaskets were "paper" type, a NAPA type auto supply shop should have thin gasket 'paper'. When the Stallions were made, composition gaskets may have included some asbestos for the hotter joint (head to case.) Today that's a no-no, but there are auto gasket high temperature materials.

Try to match up thickness, more or less.

I think it was Joe Wagner's Engine Shop column, in the current or a recent Model Aviation, that described how a good way to make a circle cutter for paper gasket material and thin (soda can, or pull-top lid type), soft aluminum. It's not hard to cut gaskets, just a bit tedious.

Luck with that engine!
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Stallion .35 gaskets.

Postby WaltEagles24 » Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:44 pm

Thanks for the info. Its difficult to know what the thickness should be but I guess I'll just buy several sizes and see what works best. I did a search on the web for Hi temp/press gasket material and found a graphite material with a foil in the middle that came as thin as 1/32". I thought that would be a good buy for the head gasket. As for the paper gaskets its hard to know what the material should be made of in order to deal with the oils, carbons, and acids of the engine. Someone mentioned card stock but wouldn't that be too thick? *** As far as the engine parts are concerned the major components are just fine, but the head/cylinder screws were rusted badly and I replaced them with new allen head screws with no problem. The bearing is babbet material, the rod is straight, the piston is a high dome on one side type, and the crank I buffed with 800 grit to brighten the rotating parts. I haven't run the engine yet, don't know how she performs but I'm hoping for the best.

Walt
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Postby loucrane » Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:46 pm

Walt,

1/32" is over 3/100". I think you can get "brown paper" - more like a cardboard - auto gasket material around one or two 100ths thick.

Possibly except for the head gasket, none of the gaskets we need have to face extreme heat. E.g., I use the "brown" paper to cut muffler/exhaust flange gaskets... They char if any is in the exhaust blast path, but hold up well otherwise.

Even for the head, if you get Joe Wagner's type of cutter working well, you can cut a stack of pull-top aluminum gaskets, and use those instead. (I still can't understand why some older engines used 'composition' cloth or asbestos materials!)
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Postby WaltEagles24 » Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:39 am

OK. So if I'm understanding you correctly I should get the brown paper gasket material at a local Auto parts store. Also, it sounds like you are suggesting I can use the metal from soda cans for the head gasket. Is that correct?

Walt
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Postby loucrane » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:01 pm

Walt,

RIGHT!

Gaskets are a special thing. Take, for example, the backplate gasket on a Fox 35 or K&B Stallion... They are cut kind of strangely. The Fox has a circular gasket which is supposed to seal under a backplate cover with three 'ears.' I cut replacements to the full form of the backplate, so there's no distortion in the unsupported 'ear' area. It works...

The 4-bolt backplate, on an engine like the Stallion 35, has little width from interior to exterior, except at the 'ears'. I approach it by punching holes to fit the bolt pattern, carefully using a #11 X-Acto blade to cut the interior after 'bolting' the gasket stock to the case, then finish by trimming the exterior to the case with the backplate mounted.

Be careful to get all crumbs out of the crankcase, and to NOT score or scratch the casting or backplate wit the #11 blade, and you have your gasket.

It may take a bit longer than just plunking the pieces in place after you finally get them delivered from wherever, but you have done something really good for your engine, with your own hands, at negligible cost, and with great prospects of good service.

And, for head gaskets, metal conducts heat better than paper or composition - that's a 'good.' If it feels over-compressed, another one or two thicknesses of the same thin metal gasket can make it comfortable, Or maybe three... It's up to you, and you control it!

Feels nice, no?
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Stallion .35 gaskets.

Postby WaltEagles24 » Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:44 am

Lou,
I tried to find paper gasket material at NAPA and they had nothing less than 1/32" so I'm still looking on that one. I did use you suggestion on the soda can and it worked. A lot of the compression has come back and when I can seal the cylinder base and crankcase everything should be fine. While I'm at it I'm gonna make a few extra metal gaskets for the future. Oh with the metal gasket I just used a fine point marker, a good pair of scissors, and an awl to start the holes then trim off the excess. Great tip thanks a million.

Walt
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Postby chiefss » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:17 pm

Card stock, ie 3x5 cards make great gasket material.
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Postby chiefss » Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:01 pm

I actually have some of the head gasket material that Perfect used to sell.
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Stallion .35 gaskets.

Postby WaltEagles24 » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:42 am

How about the dividers on a 3 ring binder, the ones that have the tabs, would they work?

Walt
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Postby chiefss » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:48 pm

Just about any heavy card stock will make a fair gasket. Playing cards, 3x5 cards, dividers. you name it it will work.
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Postby WaltEagles24 » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:25 pm

I tried a manilla folder and it worked but I'll also keep in mind your other suggestions.
Here's a new question for the same engine Stallion .35 R/C which I'd like to be able to use for C/L. This is a guess but I figure you have to find a venturi from another brand which will fit snuggly in the throat where the Carb came out and the venturi also needs to be in the ballpark of the old carb venturi.
1.) Is this a correct assumption?
2.) How do I go about researching the different brands out there to find something that will work?
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Postby chiefss » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:03 pm

The problem with that is the original venturi was just cut off to make it an R/C engine so finding something that will work is going to be a bear. The original venturi was sort of trumpet shaped. Just lock the R/C carb open and use it that way for C/L. That's what I do.
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Stallion .35

Postby WaltEagles24 » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:44 am

Well thanks for the Info and I'll try to lock the carb in place as you said.

Walt
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Venturii inserts

Postby loucrane » Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:12 pm

Walter,

I've had occasion to fiddle "inserts" for various engines over the years. If you have a few tools - a drill, possibly also a Dremel and some points, some X-Acto knives and saws - You may be able to work with 'reasonably available' materials.

Almost all our engines have round venturii - exceptions: III-series ENYAs, Fox engines based on the Combat Special case have rectangular casting openings. Your Stallion's is round.

Even with local hobby shops being scarce, chain hardware stores almost always carry racks of K&S hobby metal shapes and materials. The throat of your Stallion's insert is probably near parallel in section; the bellmouth should be toward the outer end, or perhaps it doesn't bell-out if a throttle was originally mounted.

If you have a set of drills, you could use them as go-no go guages to find the inside diameter at the spraybar location. Likely a typical 1/16" to 1/4" drill set won't be big enough for the Stallion's throat. If so, clean and dry the engine and go see 'your friendly hardware man' whether his jacket is red, blue or orange. Carefully, so you don't mar their stock, find the aluminum tubing size that fits best. If you're lucky they'll stock it in 12" lengths, so there's less waste of metal and money.

If you have a Dremel with a cutoff wheel, cutting a short length, when you're ready, is simple. If not, you can "roll-cut" K&S aluminum tubing easily with a good pocket knife blade, or an old X-Acto long whittling blade.

If the largest tube that fits is still a loose fit, two possibilities: you may be able to 'wallow it out' enough for a proper fit, or you could also get the next larger telescoping size - the one that doesn't fit - and saw a lengthwise slit in a short length of it with an X-Acto razor saw. If THAT's still too big to slip into the throat, the aluminum is soft enough that dragging a piece of, say 180 grit, sandpaper through the slit can open it a little at a time.

It's unlikely the ID of this tube will be the diameter you want, so the smaller diameter tube, also slitted if necessary, can be fitted inside it. And, again, if you still need a smalller ID...

"Wallowing out" is simply wobbling a broader, tapered object, like a fairly short-jaw pair of needlenose pliers or an old-fashined center punch, inside the outer end of the tube(s.) That can form a nice bell-mouth and stretch the entry area for a closer fit. This can also help you reach intermediate IDs - the telescoping tubing steps by 1/32".

Fitting a spraybar across the sleeved-down throat isn't too difficult. Slip the insert in and mark where one side the casting's spraybar hole is. (I usually line up any slits with this first hole.) Drill for the spraybar on the side you marked. Check that it fits the spraybar. Slip the insert back in, and use that 'right-size' drill to go through the other side.

GENERAL ADVICE: Before doing any metal cutting near the innards of ANY engine, take precaution that NO metal chips can get into the engine. One way is to remove the shaft before going through a process like the above, another is to pack the shaft end of the intake with tightly wadded paper towel, or similar.

ALSO: At all stages of working on the insert tubing, cut or file off any burrs left by your tools, and clean out ALL the 'chips.' For inside diameters, the aluminum is soft enough that you can 'carve' the burr out with an X-Acto #11 blade.

Sound difficult or complicated? Not really, though it can seem a bit tedious. There's no voodoo about 'choke' ID, really. For example, a Fox 35 'choke' ID is about 1/64" over 1/4" at around 0.260 plus or minus. A 0.281 choke ID is simply 9/32". A 0.297 is simply 19/64". Most decent 1/16" - 1/4" drill sets step by 1/64", so you're all set to talk about those super-hi-tech sounding decimal numbers. For your Stallion, I'd expect either a 0.281 or a 0.297 will work with the K&B NVA.

And if it doesn't, you know how to tackle fixing it.
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Gasket material

Postby max hansen » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:58 am

You can still buy the Perfect gasket material from Tower hobbies . Mfg. # P105 ,Tower # LXDF10 . It has a light green color but I have made it black with a marking pen . It seems to work as good as the old black material that they used to make .
I also wonder if RJL has some bulk material available ? It would be nice to buy larger sheets.
I use brown paper bags for the front & rear cover gaskets . Good luck , MAX H. :D
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Stallion .35 Glow plug replacement

Postby WaltEagles24 » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:11 am

Thanks Lou for a wealth of informaton from a very experienced modeler. I will give it a try as time permits and I'm always up for a challenge. I tried to get the Stallion to run the other day without luck. It wanted to start a few times but then quit trying. I think the glow plug needs replaced but I'm not sure what would work in this R/C version of the Stallion. Any advise would be appreciated.

Walt
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Glow plug

Postby max hansen » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:40 am

These older loop scavenged engines for R/C need a plug with the idle bar on them. I always liked the Fox ones but K&B might work best on a K&B engine . Not sure if yours takes a long or short. Max H. :D
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Postby walt » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:39 am

If a new glo plug doesn't allow it to start, make sure you haven' installed the cylinder in backwards. You have probably checked, but the high port goes toward the exhaust. And, is it drawing fuel as it's trying to run? Could be an air leak somewhere around your new gaskets. Just some thoughts. I never ran an RC version, but the CL versions were never hard to start.
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