Non-detergent Oil

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Non-detergent Oil

Postby olddogg60 » Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:49 pm

Hi all,
I'm looking for a source of non-detergent oil to use in my Super Cyclone ignition engine. I am lead to believe that mineral oil will work. I have read of 60 and 70 weight oil being used. Can someone help me out with this as I would like to run the Super Cyclone on white gas and oil instead of FAI fuel.
Best regards,
Bill.
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OIL

Postby max hansen » Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:44 am

Try a local motorcycle shop for the weights you are looking for but I don't think you will find any straight oil, it's most all detergent now days . Don't think detergent will hurt any thing . Have fun , MAX H. :lol:
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Non-detergent Oil

Postby olddogg60 » Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:05 pm

Hi Max,
Thank you for the reply. I thought that I had read some posts that said that detergent oil would attack the bearing material (Babbitt bearings). I will check a motorcycle shop.
Best regards,
Bill
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oil

Postby max hansen » Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:33 pm

Bill , I have never run across a model engine yet that used "Babbitt" bearing material .
I ran vintage race cars years ago that ran babbitt bearings & never had a problem w/detergent oils . Don't think that the little we would use & the little running time most our old engines are operated that we could do any harm. Have fun , MAX H. :lol:
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Non-detergent Oil

Postby olddogg60 » Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:06 am

Hi Max,
Thank you for the reply. I will give the detergent oil a try. Now, 60 or 70 weight? :)
Best regards,
Bill Griffith
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Postby propwobble » Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:11 pm

The problem with detergent oil is ash deposits from the additives that can cause plug fouling. No harm in trying it. Harley Davidsons uses some heavy oils.

good luck
Last edited by propwobble on Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jim Thomerson » Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:47 pm

A friend is runing 70 wt Harley oil, 3 to 1 mix, in an Anderson 65. Runs good.
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Postby olddogg60 » Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:47 am

Hi Jim,
Thank you for the input. I will check that out. Is your friend mixing that oil with white gas or regular gasoline?
Best regards,
Bill Griffith
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Postby propwobble » Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:45 am

Then there is the question of synthetic or mineral 70 wt. Synthetic for a four cycle crankcase is fine but what about two strokes? Glo fuel has used Klotz synthetic for years but does anyone know if the modern 70 wt synthetics designed for a stroke crankcase will cause problems in two stroke ign engines running gasoline?
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Postby Jim Thomerson » Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:55 am

My friend is running regular unleaded.
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Klotz kl200

Postby collie » Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:17 pm

HI , I am using Kl200 oil in my sparkers,McCoy, OK 60, Madewell .49 ,O&R60 .Mixes with ULP, Colemans Lantern fuel and Methanol .Engines are not suffering yet.As with all engines DO NOT run lean.If you are hellbent on heavy weight oil ,get some Truck Diff oil,should go to SAE 140.and no your engine won,t know it,s diff oil.
Regards Collie
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Postby olddogg60 » Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:00 am

Thanks Jim.

Hi collie,
What percentages are you mixing for your fuel?
Best regards,
Bill Griffith
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Postby loucrane » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:33 pm

Olddog,

I found some Kendall single weight 70 - also labeled Nitro 70 and GT-1 - at an auto racing shop. Sure looks and smells like natural dinosaur squeezin's. Tremendous presentation of the hot oil aroma that goes (or should go) with flying spark, too...

Haven't tried unleaded pump gas, but have had (some) nice runs using Coleman Campstove fuel. (The other runs were my fumble fingers somewhere else in the system.) Mix used was 3:1 after the engine had been pretty well run-in on glow fuel.

I've also heard that gear and transmission lubes are built for very different conditions - less temperature and sliding speed; much greater pressure on the oil film. That sounds like just getting a gear grease of a desired weight isn't likely to do the job. The Kendall 70 certainly seems to, for me, anyway.
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Postby olddogg60 » Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:11 pm

Hi Lou,
Thank you for the input. I would like to run my spark engine the old fashion way, at least to give it a try. I know that FAI fuel or low nitro fuels would work just fine, probably with at least 25% oil.
Lots of ideas to think about and I won't have my Dalliare finshed for a while yet. :D I would like to run my engines on a test stand soon though.
Best regards,
Bill
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Postby Twanger » Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:16 pm

I have been using Pennzoil Grade 70 aircraft oil that I got from Vic Didelot of Erie PA. It is made for P&W and Lycoming engines. Does anyone know if they still make this stuff? I'm running low.--Twanger
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Postby Garf » Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:09 pm

I was told you could use aviation 100/sae 50 NON detergent oil.
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Postby chiefss » Sat Dec 06, 2008 2:39 pm

White gasoline has not been available for many years. I think the white gas you guys are talking about is Coleman fuel and it is naptha, the same as cigarette lighter fluid. White gas was what model T Fords ran on. No tetra ethyl lead octane booster in it. My dad used it in his pre WWII coleman stove. Had to be purchased at gas stations and only a few carried it as late as the 60's.

I have used Coleman fuel with motor oil in my Ohlsson's with no problem. Mixed it 3 to 1. Straight unleaded gas and 50 weight motor oil is what I usually use. Haven't had any problems.

One other little item. According to Coleman, today's unleaded fuel has no lead (obviously) like white gas and can be used in Coleman lanterns. I tried it and it worked however Colman fuel is safer stuff.

DO NOT use fuel containing nitro methane. It will ruin the gasket between the cylinder and crankcase.

Straight methanol and Castor 3 to 1 works fine and runs cooler than gasoline.
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Glo fuel v. gasoline-base fuel...

Postby loucrane » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:57 pm

Ch/ss,

Thanks again for the reminder about the disappearance of white gas. We do need to be reminded as needed...

As to glo fuels in spark engines, consider - again, I may have said this elsewhere in this site -

Methanol will burn well at a much greater range of fuel/air ratios than gasoline, or apparently, naphtha (Colemans).

Methanol produces less heat, at ideal fuel/air ratio, than gasoline (~20,000 BTU/lb for gasoline; ~11,000 for methanol). These two thoughts explain why we get so much more time per fluid ounce from gasoline- (or for diesels, kerosene-) based fuels.

Oil is what we need to keep the engines from chewing themselves apart. A 3:1 mix of gasoline (or kerosene) to oil, that runs twice as long as a 3:1 methanol to oil blend, passes half as much oil through the working parts in the same length of time.

A methanol-based fuel can run richer, yet still well. Methanol chills considerably when it is vaporized; gasoline and kerosene do not. So, we get more oil through the engine, and a bonus in cooling it, too.

We need a bigger tank to get the same time from a methanol-based fuel as from a gasoline or kerosene-based fuel. That allows a "broader" needle setting, too, as methanol fuels can run richer, successfully.

We may not get the beautiful hot oil smell from a methanol/castor fuel blend, but if it starts more reliably, holds setting better, and both cools and oils the working bits better, how hard a trade-off is that?

BTW, I've been unable to find Harley-Davidson oil above SAE 60, but racing shops should be able to locate the SAE 70 Kendall racing oil.

I would NOT recommend using heavier weight greases - they are brewed for an entirely different set of working conditions and temperatures. The main thing they must do is support extreme sliding pressures at lower rates of motion, and at much lower heat conditions.

Castor mixes well with both gasoline and methanol. Petroleum oils give us that great aroma, but they don't mix well, if at all, with methanol.

What are we shootng at? - Fragrance, accompanied by cranky, undependable starting, setting and durability, or -

-sound, frequent reliable and consistent performance?

(The bark of a spark engine is a reward in itself...)

So, I think FAI fuel of 25% oil, balance methanol, should be a great alternative to 25% petroleum oil, balance pump unleaded. The engines we can use in SAM FF and RC-assist FF events, as well as in control-line Old Time Spark events, must be from the spark era, or approved replicas of those engines. Replicas are not cheap. Originals are rare and fragile. To protect them - and our wallets - the no, or low, nitro glo fuels seem a wise choice.
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Postby chiefss » Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:51 pm

Lou,

Go back and check what I wrote. I didn't say glow fuel was bad for ignition engines, I said don't use NITROMETHANE. It will ruin the gasket between the case and cylinder on Ohlsson engines. FAI fuel does not have Nitro in it and is perfectly fine to use. I use it myself. I mix SIG castor and methanol 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 and it works great and runs cooler. Not as dangerous as gasoline either.

Here's another little item for you. I have an Ohlsson 60 that I modified to use an OS4BK carb. It runs well on 3 to 1 castor/methanol and you won't belive the idle. With the spark retarded I can get it down to about 700rpm with a TopFlite 14x6. Had it on a SIG Kadet Senior for years until an unfortunate midair solved that. I even took it to Vegas one year for the 1/4 scale fly in. It was windy and no one would fly so I flew the Kadet. After that they all started to fly.

Bruce
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